Epic Game 593 North / South: Sancus/ Wulfgar vs Diws/ Zoroz

[Lord Diamond]

Originally Posted by zoroz

My trip to abroad turned to disaster. i was forced to return.

LD. turn back kingdoms (Visigoth, Alemannis, Ostros). Let me have my little contemplation behind computer.

Thanks,

zoroz

Done

[Wulfgar Skullsplitter]

Turn 16, and it ain't lookin' good for the good guys(that would be me and Sancus)

[Diws]

Final scores:

Alamanni: 16375 (22375 - 6000 for winning) Zoroz
Thuringians 16200 Diws
Lombards 14000 Diws
Visigoth 13325 Zoroz
Ostrogoth 12875 Zoroz
Saxon 10475 Wulfgar
Vandal 10250 Diws
Huns 9725 Sancus
Norse 9300 Wulfgar
Celts 8700 Wulfgar
Teuton 5275 Sancus
Frank 0 Sancus (4650 to zero because of elmination on last turn)

= Zoroz / Diws: 83025
Sancus/Wulfgar: 43475

I think that the game was closer than the score indicates.. The game ended with everyone controlling their home region except the Franks (Alamanni controlled it) and the Teutons (no one had it).

A big difference in the final score was likely that Zoroz and I had most of the top rulership and influence, since Sancus and Wulfgar lost, I believe, 3 of their kings, where Diws / Zoroz lost none. The artifacts made some differece, as Diws / Zoroz had 2 Superiors, 6 excellents, and 3 fines versus Wulf / Sancus' 2 Superiors, 2 excelents and 1 Fine.

I gained 1 artifact from theft, and 1 from destroying a Norse army late.

Also, brigade experience had to be a factor:

Diws / Zoroz:
Th: Legendary: 5 Renowned: 2 Elite- 0
Va: Legendary: 0 Renowned: 0 Elite- 4
Lo: Legendary: 0 Renowned: 1 Elite- 3
Vi: Legendary: 4 Renowned: 3 Elite- 0
Os: Legendary: 5 Renowned: 2 Elite- 0
Al: Legendary: 3 Renowned: 2 Elite- 3
= L: 16 R: 10 E: 10

Wulf/Sancus
Ce: Legendary: 0 Renowned: 0 Elite- 1
Hu: Legendary: 0 Renowned: 1 Elite- 2
No: Legendary: 3 Renowned: 0 Elite- 0
Sa: Legendary: 3 Renowned: 1 Elite- 2
Fr: Legendary: 0 Renowned: 0 Elite- 0 (eliminated)
Te: Legendary: 0 Renowned: 0 Elite- 0
= L: 6 R: 2 E: 5

The elimnation of the Franks, and the destruction of the Norse army on turn 21, I think it was, were big factors here.

This seems to be the last Epic game under the FOR I format. Good show, guys; I had a lot of fun. Zoroz is a formidable teammate indeed, and Wulfgar and Sancus are great opponents with very differnt games, and complementary skills. 'Till the next war in Valhalla..

[Diws]

So what were your takes on the game? zoroz? wulfgar? sancus?

[Sancus]

Originally Posted by Diws

So what were your takes on the game? zoroz? wulfgar? sancus?

Honestly, I never checked the final turn results.

While beaten, if you look beyond the final score and other tallies you posted above and then look at the map, Wulfgar and I put up a good struggle. If you look at the map, it was not a complete slaughter. I hope that we kept your attention off and on throughout the game; and, I cajoled Wulfgar into keeping up the momentum through the end.

I think I gave away the game with an early-game mistake. I aggressively threw my Franks at the Vandals from turn 1/2 and ended up squandering the Franks early in a gambit that backfired. I risked moving on Tolosa and did not secure it before your Vandal Army took it back. I lost my court there. I left Acquitania open and uncontrolled and which initially was a drain on Wulfgar's resources from up North. However, later in the game, the Franks were more self sustainining until the last turn. The Franks job once neutered was to serve as a pestering force behind enemy lines to keep you distracted down South as much as possible. At one point, I even had a Frank Division raiding in Italia :).

Based upon my losing the Frankish kingdom's offensive capabilities, Wulf and I worked it out as best as we could, but I think it would have been a different game if I had started out more conventionally with the Franks -- or at least secured Tolosa with my Army rather than separating my court and military like I did. This would have been a much differerent game otherwise. But, I am trying out different moves in Epic Games :). Can't get better if we don't venture into new territory...

My Huns miraculously held off repeated attacks throughout the game from the Ostrogoth and Thuringians. I was surprised you did not go for my Citadel in Pannonia. Wulfgar's Norse helped a little. But, I think he should have left his king at home rather than take the into a hot zone in Noricum. This hurt us also by taking the slow terds that far South with his King in tow and losing it there.

My second mistake was leaving my Teuton king in a small division-sized legion when your Thuringians caught it in Raetia with an intercept. I miscalculated your intentions and thought you were too far away in Pannonia at the time. My Teutons never really recovered "offensively" at that point after losing my king, but I think I tied up both your Lombards and Thuringians quite well throughout the remainder of the game. My Teuton's control of Trier for most of the game, I am sure, was quite an annoyance for you.

I also tried to distract your Lombards and Thuringians by drawing them continuously down into Italia, which worked at times, and periodically persuaded you to divert offensive resources to defend Italia. The harrassment moves split up your resources and kept some of the pressure being applied in Germania and Pannonia at times. The wandering Franks also called back even some Visigoth resources at times.

Other than that, these two mistakes for me are what put me on defense and took away my offensive capability in hindsight. My Huns were the only offensive capability that I had once both mistakes were made. But, I had to be smart about how and where I used them for maximum affect which I believe I did with the limited remaining assets available on the latter quarter of the game.

I moved my garrison out of citadel in Germania partly out of boredom. I don't think you would have been strong enough to take my citadel otherwise if my garrison had remained "forted up". I just needed something to do at the end of the game to peak my interest.

In the FoR II version, I believe that all playing styles to date will become irrelevant in the face of new game functionality. The new game will shake up all currently known conventional tactics. I can't wait to start :)>.

Sancus

[Diws]

Yes, it was a hard fought game, and as I said, closer than the final score indicated.. mainly I was trying to find the reasons for the score discrepancy with the map.

The diversions into Narbonnensis and Italia definately tied down resources.. in Italia I was forced to commit some forces there, because I felt that the diversion was strong enough that it could become a full blown attack if I ignored it.

You did a nice job with the Franks once the court was lost (and that gamble of throwing them all into Tolosa would have worked most times, I think. I was suspicious of such a move, though the scope of it did surprise me, and that's why I reconned Tolosa immediately. Seeign the opportunity to kill your court, I maxed out on troop recruitment and concentrated there). I believe that we tried twice unsuccessfully to take the Frankish capital fortress, but you seemed to stack up the reinforcements, and then do quick little raids, with good timing. that more than anything tied my Vandals down.. I wanted to catch the franks in the open, and did not succeed in this enough.

I'm known for my love of artifacts, and things worked out to where the Thuringians had way more than their share. They may not have had the top points, but they were my most effective military, especially against the Norse (with the combo of speed and artifacts). I believe that it was the Lombards that took out your Teuton king; I moved them up to defend Raetia on the way to taking a swipe at Germania.

the basic strategy on my end became to use the Vandals to try and eliminate the Franks, while eventually putting pressure on the Saxons. The Lombards were to attack Germania, and establish a permanent presence there (this was slowed by the Frankish / Hunnish raids into Italia), and the Thurigians were mostly a hunter/killer force trying to hurt the Huns and Norse, and take pressure off of the Ostrogoths.

Zoroz and I could have followed up better after the early successes, but at least took the win. We were ultimately more successful in killing troops and characters than we were in maintaining control of territory in offensives.

[zoroz]

I have to agree with Diws. We could have done better after gaining upper hand in both west and east wing.

why we didn't? west. First my Visigoths failed to take Franks last town. This attempt crippled their military might to half. I have to give credits to both opponents, their counter intelligence were in place. Visigoth would have been successful if agents could have accomplish their task. Also Alemannis lost all agents in sending them mission into Celts city. Taking Franks down - this task fell now to Alemannis. They were raiding Armorica were beaten up Celts did turtled up. It took several turns to gather slow Alemannis meanwhile the Vandals got regrouped and stormed franks capitol. Failed too.
Once again Alemannis were forced to return. This moving back and forth Alemanni forces delayed our bigger plans up to point were Celts were strong enough to move out again. Our third attempt was well prepared and franks capitol fell finally.
East. Huns started with artifact poaching in Rhaetia while Ostrogoth invaded immediately Pannonia controlling most of villages there. Sancus countered it with constant DR. And once Ostrogoth were done with villages they could not do more there and returned for a turn to set up trap for Huns at superior in Pannonia. Our cooperation with Diws worked well and our joined forces bested Huns nicely after what the Huns did turtle up. To add this triumph at SS give Thuringians a creepy set of weapons as Alemannis did donated their fine them too to help our greater cause. And it served us well. Many noble warriors fell including king of Norse.
Few turns later Noricum was the place were action took place. Obviously S/W did have a plan there to archive something. But it was their first and last joined military campaign. It turned to disaster. After that W/S side were a able to conduct only diversion attacks.
I tried to take advantage of this and moved my under highly attrition troops into Scandia. Being constantly on hostile ground was not good thing to troops morale. My Ostrogoths ended with morale below 70.

Despite we didn't won much ground after a early success neither was there any reason to worry.
Franks out, Celts turtled up half a game, same Huns, Norse lost their king thrice, Teutons twice and turtled up, only Saxons doing desperate raiding to support everybody else with supplies. How did they manage i got no clue but they did. I think that Wulf bought even some mercs..

[Sancus]

Originally Posted by zoroz

I have to agree with Diws. We could have done better after gaining upper hand in both west and east wing.

And once Ostrogoth were done with villages they could not do more there and returned for a turn to set up trap for Huns at superior in Pannonia. Our cooperation with Diws worked well and our joined forces bested Huns nicely after what the Huns did turtle up.

Few turns later Noricum was the place were action took place. Obviously S/W did have a plan there to archive something. But it was their first and last joined military campaign. It turned to disaster. After that W/S side were a able to conduct only diversion attacks.

Despite we didn't won much ground after a early success neither was there any reason to worry.

How did they manage i got no clue but they did. I think that Wulf bought even some mercs..

Supplies were not really a problem during this game. Wulfgar and I traded a little periodically to balance things out based upon our alliances, but we managed quite well. I was really more short on gold than supplies at times.

You had the game from the start after my blunder in the West, and you had the game tilted in your favor in the East once Wulfgar had lost his Norse King the first time and I lost my Teuton king in Raetia against Diws' surprise Lombard intercept against my small division. I still believe that was a tactical blunder by my buddy to send his king to Noricum with all of those Thuringian controlled artifacts floating around in a very-nicely maintained (healed) elite Thuringian army. But, that aside, Scandia became your "Russian Winter campaign" from my perspective. I would have thought that you would have continued attacking Pannonia. If you had done this, I would have had NO offensive capability remaining among all three of my kingdoms.

You won in points and assets, but we used the geography quite well for staying through the entire game and not folding our cards -- Trust, me Wulfgar wanted to fold the cards on Turn 16, but I pushed him to stick with this game and finish it out ... licking our wounds from the mistakes made early on.

You caught the Huns at the SS early in the game, but I don't think it was a disaster because the Huns recovered quietly to continue later in Italia. The Huns played offense in Italia for the purposes of a different strategy that did not include your Ostrogoths -- since I believe you also denigrated me in Noricum. Therefore, I left Noricum largely alone.

This was a defensive struggle for us on the losing end, but it was a good challenge for us to try to maintain control of as many regions as we could with what we had remaining. That's my perspective on this.